View source for Talk:The Riddle Of Stratoniche's Tomb

Kerry:
Hmm. After a lot of thought, I think the answer is 1H8Posideon. 733t speak in the BC, wooo yeah!

Noah: Owing much to an astute line of reasoning proposed by [[Danble]], I believe I have cracked the riddle.  The answer is not entirely perfect, but it is an answer and does 'fit' with the options available to us. There is also a 'key' to the riddle that any math or engineering major would pick up automatically, but since we are idiot humanities majors, it went over our heads.

Unfortunately, even assuming the answer proposed here is correct, there isn't any way that those presently involved with the riddle could have deduced it.  Indeed, there is exactly one (extremely annoying) individual in the Greater Byzantium area with the knowledge to solve it, and as of yet he's never heard it (so far as we know).

Be that as it may, I believe the answer is as follows:

==A Potential Answer to the Riddle of Stratoniche==

"Change a single Greek stroke into a single Arabic stroke in the wise healer of one hundred bulls. Before his fee place the number of arms of the enemy, after it place the name of the father who hoards the most flour that is ground in the mill Sampo-Groti" 

I started off by realizing that a hundred bulls is a unit of measuring sacrifice known as a hecatomb.  I then wasted a significant amount of time following the line of reasoning that the goddess Hecate could be the 'wise healer of a hundred bulls' since her name is, indeed, 'of' the word hecatomb.

This was not the correct line of thinking however.

Danble's contribution was to suggest that the "mill Sampo-Groti" might refer to the theory that the mill is in fact the night sky, and is responsible for the progression of the Equinox. Therefore the "flour that is ground" in it would either be stars, literally, or astronomical data, metaphorically. Therefore, the 'father' would be an astronomer of some sort.

[From here on out, I think, Wikipedia gets the bulk of the credit, since, with a few exceptions, my own knowledge had been exhausted.]

It so happens, as Danble's research revealed, that an astronomer by the name of Hipparchus was famously known as the "father of scientific astronomy." And with that, I could tell which way the wind was blowing.

More on Hipparchus later.

If Hecate was *not* the wise healer referenced, who else could there be? Well, there is another, very well known "wise healer": Hippocrates. What's more, he was of the Pythagorean school -- the school that was founded when Pythagoras sacrificed a hundred bulls to signify his accomplishment of discovering what we know as the Pythagorean theorem. The wise healer of one hundred bulls = Hippocrates.

It helps to know that his full name is Hippocrates of Cos and that he is frequently confused with a contemporaneous mathematician, Hippocrates of Chios.  There is your single stroke (here not a literal stroke, but rather a single letter) -- by changing the kappa in 'Cos' to zye you get 'Chios', and, not coincidentally, the symbol for zye is the same as the Arabic symbol for the number 3: 

'''Îž'''

Now, Hippocrates of Chios is known for attempting to tackle two of the three famous classical mathematics problems: squaring the circle and doubling the cube (both of which, it should be mentioned, are of great importance in Masonic tradition).  While the math involved in these problems is beyond me, they both involve approximating the golden ratio.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio

Now, the clincher.  

The Greek letter used by mathematicians to represent the golden ratio is phi, pronounced 'fee.'  Fee = 'phi.' 

This is why the riddle doesn't work if written down.

Thus on one side of the ratio you place the number of arms of the enemy, the one thing we know: eight.

On the other, as Danble figured out, you place the name of the 'father' who gathered the most information about astronomy.  This guy is Hipparchus. It just so happens that a (an?) "hipparchia" is a unit of measuring cavalry which equals ~500 horsemen.  Thus, on the other side of the ratio, we can put '500'.  Now we have an equation we can solve:

8 / 500 =  .016

16 is a location listed on Stratoniche's map, on the bottom right.

==Possible Unintended Bonus That Gives a Slightly Better Answer==

Since there are two Hippocrates discussed here, before "his" fee could mean both of them.  In the Hippocratic Oath, Hippocrates wrote that if anyone wished to be instructed in medicine it was his duty, "to teach them this art if they so desire without fee[.]"  Thus, Hippocrates of Cos' fee is 0 and placing the number of arms of the enemy before it yields a slightly different formula:

80/500 = .16 = 16

==Additional Evidence That This Answer is Correct==

A close approximation of the golden ratio is 1.6, which is about as far as they got during the Hellenistic period.

Also, all three personages (four if you count Archimedes) are closely tied to matters of astrology, as well as being de facto members or associated with the Pythagorean school.

==Epilogue==

Aside from giving us Drelzna's location on the moon, this also verifies a connection that many of us had guessed at: in addition to the priests of Mithra, Ikulu disseminated information to the secret Pythagorean math cult which manifests itself in the contemporaneous 10th century as crazy schools of math monks with oriental adventures powers (monk, kensai and probably sohei too).  

Abner of the Five Adventurers, who the Danger Gang Auxiliary recently rescued from the Ortheians, is one such monk from a school, I believe, in Germany.  He will have sufficient in-game knowledge to figure out the riddle.  I don't think there's any way anyone else close by who would have enough in-game knowledge to solve it (Reynaldo could probably do it, as could Harald, but they are thousands of miles away).  

==Shenanigans?==

There are two potential reasons that I can think of which may make this answer, against all evidence, incorrect.  However, it seems to me, in light of the evidence, that the answer may be correct, whilst the riddle itself, is, ah, wrong.

Archimedes, who is said to have known all the answers to the riddle except the arms of the enemy, died ~ 20+ years before Hipparchus was born.  This would preclude him from knowing the answer to the last part of the riddle (and, technically, preclude the riddle from being written 100+ years prior to Hipparchus' birth; but since it was written by Ikkulu, we'll let that part slide).

Secondly, in order for the riddle to work, some of it has to be read as it appears in Greek (to change one stroke into another) and some of it has to be read phonetically in English ('fee'). That is, I assume that the Greek word for fee doesn't sound like 'fee.'

Regardless, I believe this answer to be true and correct.

Kerry: Sure Shenanigans inculdes the fact that Arabic as a written language and number system doesn't exist until much later, with Arabic letters first used in the 3rd or 4th century AD. "Arabic" numerals are actually Indian, and don't get to Arabia until 500AD at the earliest. So "a single Arabic stroke" is an impossibility at the time or Stratonice's death, unnless Igwilf has crazy future linguistic powers.

Hal: Pre-Islamic Arabic inscriptions are rare; however, the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Whether anyone would call numerals "Arabic" before the middle ages is another matter.

Hal: The most important thing to note about shenanigans is that such things are always verifiable in game. If you're wondering about the antiquity of Arabic, seek out a wizened old imam; if you're wondering about the lifetime of Hippocrates, go seek his grave in Cos (or Chios). It might be difficult to determine how the Angle (or Saxon) word for "fee" was pronounced thirteen hundred years ago, but not theoretically impossible (ask an Angle lich; or (snicker) a Pythagorean, as I hear they know all the angles).

Noah: Yes, but, at least in this instance, the question is not how the Angle word "fee" was pronounced, but rather how the Ancient Greek word "fee" was pronounced, for this is the language in which the riddle was writ! Note that if we were to discover a text which says, "oh, and by the way, the Ancient Greek word for fee was spelt mxyzptlk, but actually pronounced 'fee,'" it might make up for the venial shenanigan, but the mortal shenanigan... that would still need to be atoned for.

I think it would probably be easiest if all the players simply learned all the different languages spoken or written by their characters, and Hal learned every language that has ever been spoken or written by anyone in the 10th Century or prior.  It might be tough to do for the languages of the nixies, pixies, sprites and treants, but at the end of the day, isn't the improved verisimilitude worth the effort?

Hal: The word used for fee in the riddle is "miothos" (although it of course appears in a different form, as Greek is inflected and miothos is here governed by a proposition).

Noah: Well, poop.

==That's It!==

Now, for the small matter of getting to the moon.  And back.  And knowing when to do it.  And keeping this knowledge from the enemy. And surviving 'the chill blood of Drelzna.'

==Back to discussion==

Hal: Obviously the only way to discover whose answer, Kerry's or Noah's, is correct is by trial and error. However, I will say that there are no shenanigans in the riddle, or at least not such blatant shenanigans, or there is a tricky way around the shenanigans, Archimedes and all.

Also, remember that sufficient access to a large library can substitute for (or rather provide) in-game knowledge.

Noah: Of course, we may not *want* the answer just now.  Because what you don't know can't be tortured out of you.  Not that it won't stop certain people from trying.

I'm just saying.

Kerry: I'm all with you as for the wise healer being Hippocrates, and the fee 0. So we've got 80. The rest seems a far stretch, though. Why is the bardic Sampo information (a DM gimme if there ever was one) totally unrelated? Where does the division sign come from? The riddle says "Place X before Y, and after it place Z". If XY = 80, then XYZ ought to be 80?. Also, remember how the numbers are writ on the map. It is a roman-numeral stlye way to write, and that means we are likely looking for a series of digits with a meaning that you might not think of using arabic numerals. The example I am thinking of is 111, which means one hundred and eleven to us and three to a Greek. Zero doesn't exist, meaning that the fee of Hippocrates is likely literally "nothing", and a good tricky piece of riddlery. Also, if the first part is eight that doesn't leave a lot of choices. 

In addition, Harald is closer than you think and getting closer than that all the time. He's got super important stuff to talk about with Eorl, and he now is the only person (as far as I know) with all the Queens texts, the original party texts, and the Following Alexander party texts.

--tcm: how could you possibly have all of the Queens' texts? you were with us all of two seconds. you definitely weren't there when we got the two most important texts we've (the Queens party) have ever gotten on Igwolf.

--Hal: Perhaps a little bird told him. A little bird in the form of a crow...

--tcm: that crow was dead long before those texts were found. ask Dan, he'll tell you all about it.

Noah: I did realize last night that zero did not exist and therefore 8 next to nothing would still be 8 and not 80.  So no bonus points, I guess. 

The legend lore on the Sampo isn't totally unrelated; that is to say, the information was also true.  Or I should say, true-ish.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's no such thing as the Sampo-Groti.  I mean, there's the Sampo, and there's the Groti, and they are mythologically equivalent, but one is Finnish and the other is... Dutch, I think?  That says to me that the concept is more important than the thing itself.

The division sign is the 'fee' or 'phi' or ratio.  That to me is what I'm most sure of. Although you are correct and a string of digits without an operator would also serve as an answer, which I never considered (I spent a lot of time looking for an operator, so when fee fit I thought I had it).

However, there are a number of confluences here, all of which indicate to me that this answer is correct, at least somewhat:

1. We know there is a crazy Pythagorean cult around.  The four personages associated with this solution to the riddle were all Pythagoreans of one stripe or another.

2.  Hippocrates of Chios is indeed a single letter away from Hippocrates of Cos, and that letter is also a number in Arabic.

3. 'phi' is indeed short hand for the golden ratio, which was an obsession of Greek mathematicians at the time (Hippocrates of Chios inclusive), many of whom believed it held some kind of crazy esoteric powers.

4. 8/500 is an expression of the golden ratio.  These are not just random numbers here. Eight is the number we are *certain* of, 500 we may not be, but the result is reminiscent of the closest approximation to the golden ratio achieved during this time period = 1.6.

5. My gut tells me that this is the kind of answer we would be looking for, complete with internal checks that suggest we're on the right track.

None of that means that I've got the right answer with absolute certainty, or that I haven't missed a step along the way. But I think it's pretty solid.  It is also true that the answer likely won't be of any use to us for quite some time, and, as I suggested before, might actually be more of a liability.

That said, as of March 1 or thereabouts, Chrysopolis is still standing and Eorl is alive.  Large doings are afoot there, however, so who knows what tomorrow may bring.  Still, machinations from a year ago are beginning to bear fruit, so to speak.  Even if Eorl is dead and the city is in ruins by the time Harald arrives, I predict it will be worth the trip.

Kerry: The fee = phi is the fishiest part by far. I totally don't buy it, and Hal is too Simulationist to let something like that slip by. Also, the more I think about it the more I doubt Hippocrates. There are several much more famous healers: Ascelpius, Apollo, and Chiron, the centuar. Chiron is one letter away from Charon, a boatman who has a set fee or toll. I have to check out the Greek names. I asked Hal about the use of "of" in Greek, and he said it is less amnigous and points more to "realted to bulls" than "healed bulls". See Shenanigans for more thoughts.

Kerry: Even though it is Shenanigans, there are four arabic characters that look like greek alpha turned sideways. Changing iota in Chiron to alpha gives Charon. Charon's fee is one coin. Also, after rereading [[Ikkulu's Lament]] I wonder about the enemy. She uses the term to include the tailed men (maybe 3?), the octopuses (8), and their Goddess (none? 2? 4?).

Matt: moon or bust.

Hal: "Bulls" is, in the Greek, in the genitive. For its uses, see: http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node=Genitive

Kerry: To Hal- Is "Heal" a verb whose object takes the genitive? 
More nails in the coffin of Noah et al's theory- Kos in greek is kappa omega xi, whilst Chios is chi iota omega xi. You need to change a lot more than one stroke. According to my research, Chiron is chi iota rho omega nu, whilst Charon is chi alpha rho omega nu. Iota and alpha are both one stroke each. Plus, it doesn't make sense. Change a letter in the name of the healer to get a new name, A. A's fee is what to put in between the other two numbers, not the healer's fee. Otherwise why mention changing a stroke at all? It would read "Place the number of arms of the enemy in front of the fee of the healer of 100 bulls..." instead. Also, none of us has a good explanation of the "100 bulls", which would go a long way. An explanation relating to Pythagoras' sacrice is pretty weak. I bet there is a more direct connection. 

I'm guessing that last two digits are both one. Charon's fee is one for sure, and the numbering system doesn't permit anything but a one in the third place. However, the last digit may be nothing as well. If the arms are eight that makes the answer 71111, or nine.

Noah: Well, if the facts don't conform to the theory...

Kerry: Like Scott McCloud, I just can't stop thinking. I think the dungeon the Brookylnites just hacked was meant to give a clue to what I already figured out vis a vis Charon. Also, I think we've been barking up the wrong tree about enemy's arms. What is the root of the english word octopus, octopuses? Greek, Octopus, octopodes, meaning eight feet. Eight is also an akward number for an initial place, since it limits the following digits to one. Ten works more easily. So I ask unto Hal, in anceint Greek do octopuses have arms or feet? How about squid?

Noah: I believe we have another clue in the [[Inscription Regarding the Three Charms of Ikkulu]] where, at the end of her devotional to Herakles, she writes: 'For he dwells forever, far from his pillars / With the father of Enneadecaeteris.' Enneadecaeteris, we discover, is an early sort of calendar, vaguely reminiscent of the above interpretation of the Sampo-Groti.  And 'father' in both instance. Hm. If we take the flour ground in the heaven-turning Sampo-Groti to be the stars, then the <i>moon</i> could potentially be said to hoard it as it crosses/blots out the night sky.  And there's the moon again.  Makes sense that Herakles would be there. He did have to vanish completely or face Cassander's blade. And if Drelzna is to restart the race, she'll need a male counterpart. Why not make it the only surviving member of Alexander's bloodline?  And they say that there's no sex in D&D.  

Anyway, the primary problem I have with this interpretation is that I know of no tradition in which the sun is mother and the moon is father; unless you're talking about the Moonies (<i>that's a different Moon - ed.</i>). 

Or maybe it refers to the Man in the Moon? Even if it does, what number could be placed on the other side of the 'fee'? Does the Man in the Moon have a name?

tcm: getting the answer to this is all well and good, but do you guys know what it belongs to? as in, why do we care what the answer to this is (here is where i admit i've been lax in my QuestWiki reading, so perhaps this is explained elsewhere). someone mentioned a map with coordinates; someone mentioned the Pythagoreans (who are total assholes and hate the Masons that [[Wong]] has been working so hard to ally us with). what i'm saying is: make sure this is important before you throw your considerable resources into it.

Kerry: 
* tcm, you should look at the map found in Stratonice's (Drelzna's) fake tomb. It has a picture of the moon with numbers from 1 to 18 on it. I bet we have to know where we are going when we go to the moon.
* Noah, in Japanese mythology the Sun is female and the Moon male. I think they're the only ones. As for Herakles, I think it more likely he dwells to the East, past the River of Stones. Look at the Lament, I think it only implies that Drelzna is on the moon. We need more Sampo research to figure the last part out.

--tcm: the pre-Muslims worshipped an idol which they called a Moon God. this Moon God married the Sun Goddess and they had three daughters, the so-called Daughters of Allah. i believe Kerry has more intimate knowledge of this.

Noah: I don't read anything in the lament that implies Herakles isn't there as well.  Surely Ikkulu would be more concerned with her daughter (although, it is possible, technically, that Herakles is her grandson, they may not have been particularly "close").  But yes, prior to finding the inscriptions I thought that Herakles was likely in India, somewhere, and may have carried on the Alexander family line. I'm not sure if he could have made it past the River of Stones, though.  After all, Alexander didn't.  If he couldn't get past, how could his son?

Kerry: By being one day more patient.

Noah: Hmpf.

tcm: okay, listen. Hal's laughing at me because i don't understand what you guys are talking about. "By being one day more patient" sounds like i don't know something about the River of Stones that you guys do. somebody ought to email me what it is this means (really, just email me everything you know; i think that would just be best). also, this map of the moon? i know nothing of this (man, i really wish Dan hadn't moved away; i'm so behind).

Kerry: To tcm- be strong, read the wiki, especially the [[Quest]] section, and everything will be clear.

tcm: well, i've read everything, and i still don't know why being one day more patient would have spelled success for Herakles in crossing the River of Stones (although i'm good with everything else).

Kerry: Now go read Mandeville.

Hal:  As we all know, that would violate Reynaldo's code of temporal ethics. Instead, he should read E---- the D----- (effaced so as not to give Rey too many clues).


Kerry: The only part I am not sure of now is the "father...Groti" bit. However, I think Noah is off here as well. The Sampo/Groti (both the same thing,ie a magical mill that produces salt or gold out of nothing, one Finnish and one Norse) churns <i>out</i> wealth and/or salt, as <b>flour</b> is churned <i>out</i> of a mill. <b>Wheat</b> goes <i>into</i> a mill, but <b>nothing</b> goes <i>into</i> the Sampo/Groti. So who is the father who hoards the most nothing? Is it noone?

Chris: Well, it says flour that is ground in the mill. Flour is ground in a mill, in that flour is made in a mill through the process of grinding. In the same sense wealth or salt or ground in a sampo in that they are ground out of a sampo.

Kerry: Chris, you are totally right. I tried to correct that last night but couldn't get maggietron to process my request. We need to know the father who hoards the most salt and/or gold.

==Towards an Answer==

Noah: Back to it again.  

With the texts we have, it was possible to reverse engineer parts of the riddle.  

In [[Archimedes' Introduction to his Proof of Calculus]], we learn that the answer will be expressed in the answer to a formula, x {operator} y = z.

In the [[Page from Aristotle's On Youth and Age]] we are told the operators that Nectanebos (nee Ikulu) disseminated among the Greeks:

   the cross for addition, the line for subtraction, the little star for 
   multiplication, the roasting spit for division, and the parallel lines for equality, for 
   nothing can be more equal than two parallel lines

In [[The Riddle and Fate of Harpalus and his Dwarf]] we find that:

   ''obolus'' means both a ''coin'' and a ''spit'' 

The obolus, we recall from Aeagae, is the fee for the ferryman, Charon.

The fee from the riddle is not for Charon, but for the "wise healer of a hundred bulls."

[[Gebertus]] points out that the riddle's author must be fond of puns, and a polymath to boot.  In a flash [[Barry Ceasefire]] deduces that a translation of "a hundred bulls" from Greek to Latin leaves us with Cent + Taurus or Centaur.  The wise healer centaur was indeed Chiron, and by changing iota (a single stroke of Greek) into alif (a single stroke of Arabic) we do get Charon, whose fee was the obolus, or spit, or division sign.  The Arabs claim that their alphabet has existed since the beginning of time, which may or may not be true, but it seems it existed in this form at a time when Ikulu would know it as such. 

All that to get to the operation, which is division.  The numerator is "the number of arms of the enemy," which we still assume is eight.  The denominator is "the name of the father who hoards the most flour that is ground in the mill Sampo-Groti".  We haven't yet looked into this much, but once we do, we should come up with the answer.

The way the [[Danger Gang]] currently figures it, the name (and also the answer) must be 1, 2, 4 or 8 -- otherwise we'll get a fraction, and that won't jive with the locations on the map. Or, I guess, maybe, the answer will be a pun.  Cuz there are plenty of those in the world, it seems.

Kerry: Good work. Nice to know I was at least near the right direction. However I am apparently an idiot, because I just spent an hour reading through "A Short History of Greek Mathematics" and "A History of Mathematical Notation (V1)" before reading the discussion. Oh well. Anyways, the answer is most likely 4 or 8. Archimedes thought he knew the answer, but he used 2 for the number of legs of the enemy. 2/1 or 2/2 give meaningful answers, but nothing higher does. I would bet on four, since x/1 is lame.

Kerry: I've got it. From [[Letter from Cn. Julius Agricola to his grandson, M. Claudius Cornelius Tacitus]]:
    Dis Pater is revered by them to an uncommon degree, and you may
    recall that mighty Caesar himself wrote that this god was the ancestor of all Celts. You 
    may also recall from your schoolbooks that Dis Pater, as his name indicates, has been 
    honored by us in two forms: as Plutus, giver of wealth and munificence, and as Pluto the 
    lord of death.

Dis is Greek for 2. Dilemma, Dichloride, etc.

==Final Answer!==

Kerry: 
* The number of arms of the enemy: 8
* The wise healer of 100 bulls: Chiron
* Change a stroke to make: Charon
* Fee of Charon: the obolus, or division sign
* The flour that is ground in the mill Sampo-Groti: wealth
* The father who hoards the most wealth: Dis Pater

8/2 = 4.

Noah: I'll buy that for a dollar.  Good work.  Both you and Hal. 

That puts Drelzna in location IIII, I believe, known to us a the Lambert crater, in southern part of the Mare Imbrium.  

http://www.grendel.org/hunter/share/stratoniche_map.png
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/sblanco/astro/images/moon_map.jpg

Gentlemen, let's go to the moon.