Talk:The Stone of Destiny Speaks

Noah: Hal mentions there is one anachronism, however it remains in keeping with Midrashic tradition.

Hal: An *esoteric* tradition. Tragically not Midrashic. I apologize for the unavoidable anachronism.

Chris: Oh, well that clears is all up. What is the anachronism?

Kerry: Does many pillars refer to Demogorgon, whose palace in the Himalayas is known for it's many diamond pillars?

Noah: I don't think so... I think it's something else from Judeo-Christian tradition.

Kerry: Well, ol' Nebuchannezzer is surely a grass-eater. Also a demon? I'm trying to figure out who is what here, and what we're looking for. I think the variously described enemies are a good guess:

The enemy’s gods’ gods will be there to oppose us, the hag and hungry goblin that into rags would rend you.

and

From the spirit that stands by the naked man may the Book of Moons defend ye 

and more

She birthed the worm, the dragon, the female monster, the great lion, the mad dog, the man scorpion, 
the howling storm, Kulili, Kusariku.

So, we needs perhaps identify these:

• Hag (likely the same as the female monster)
• Hungry Goblin
• Spirit that stands by the naked man
• The worm
• The dragon
• The great lion
• The mad dog
• The man scorpion
• The howling storm
• Kulili
• Kusariku

Kerry: Job says "I am a brother to dragons, and a companion to owls." Job, 30:29. Some translators prefer "brother to jackals".

Noah: S'truth. And here's how these riddles work: the first part refers to the monster, the second not to a geographic location but rather chapter and verse where the referenced passage may be found in the Torah. Chapter and verse will each correspond to a name of G-d when they are arranged alphabetically (in English - arranging them Alef-Bet-ically in Hebrew causes some transliterative linguistic challenges which make things unnecessarily complex). Thus:

 Against the whip of the heavier yoke, speak ye the names corresponding to where first this new 
 whip is threatened.

Solomon's son Rehoboam threatens his new subjects with the whip of the heavier yoke,

 My father laid on you a heavy yoke; I will make it even heavier. My father scourged you with whips; I will 
 scourge you with scorpions.

We can deduce that the passage refers to the Scorpion (or Man-Scorpion) and it is mentioned in 1 Kings 12:11, thus the 11th and 12th names are to be used against it. (Rehoboam prefaces this passage by saying, 'my little finger is thicker than my father's loins' which I think is pretty funny.)

Next,

 Against the source of the sweet riddle, speak ye the names of its first riddling mention, and 
 therefore the same name twice!

The sweet riddle is almost certainly Samson's riddle to the Philistines, which is either one of the most unfair riddles of all time or evidence that Samson didn't understand the concept of riddles:

 He replied, "Out of the eater, something to eat; out of the strong, something sweet." For three days they could 
 not give the answer.

The 'eater' was a lion in which bees had nested making sweet honey. So the first part either refers to the Great Lion or we have to worry about besting Tiamat's bees. The verse is from Judges 14:14, so we find, indeed, we must speak the 14th name twice.

Then,

 Against the bane of the many pillars, speak ye the names of the riddler’s reenactment of this bane.

Well, the riddler's reenactment of the bane of many pillars must be Samson pulling down the Philistine's temple to Dagon (Judges 16:30), but what, precisely, is he reenacting? Although I am not entirely certain, I believe that what is being referred to here is the collapse of the Tower of Babel. While it is not specified in the Torah exactly how the tower fell, Jewish tradition suggests it was toppled by a great wind. I conclude that names 16 and 30 can be used against the Howling Storm (whatever that is).

Moving on,

 Against the one who eats the queen’s corpse, the place where that queen is trodden under hoof.

The queen here is Jezebel; her corpse is trampled by horses (in 2 Kings 9:33) and eaten by dogs. Against the Mad Dog, names 9 and 33.

 For the brother of the comrado of owls, the place where owls party with satyrs.

Job is indeed brother to dragons, and that is the creature in question here. Owls can be found partying with satyrs, anachronistically, in the King James Bible:

 But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and owls 
 shall dwell there, and satyrs shall dance there.

Isaiah 13:21. No doubt the esoteric tradition *is* clear, however.

 For the comrado’s mother and sister, the place where they eat grapes.

We learn later in Job, when he is lamenting his lot in life and wishing he were dead,

 if I say to corruption, 'You are my father,' and to the worm, 'My mother' or 'My sister,'

Where do worms eat grapes? Deuteronomy 28:39!

 You shall plant vineyards, and dress them, but shall neither drink of the wine, nor gather the grapes; for the 
 worms shall eat them.

And so the Worm will be weakened and enervated by names 28 and 39.

Lastly, we have:

 For the one who eats grass like an ox, where the bloody husband’s son’s soul was not severed 
 from his people.

One of the few references I at least recognized without looking up is that it is the Behemoth who eats grass like an ox. Again from Job:

 Behold now, Behemoth, which I made as well as you; He eats grass like an ox

Unrelated, and one of the few things I recall from my Bar Mitzvah studies, is that after Moses' son is circumcized by his wife (with a pointy rock(!)), she calls Moses her bloody husband (Exodus 4:25):

 Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, Surely 
 a bloody husband art thou to me.

Indeed, since Moses had "forgotten" to do the circumcision, here was an opportunity for his son's soul to be severed from his community by failing to complete the covenant. Mother knows best, however, and names 4 and 25 are for use against the 'Behemoth,' whatever that may be.

Kerry: Yet more! Secrets and darkness, eh?

For the secret ones, the names are a secret! Come you not into their secret! All is darkness in these secret places!

Not so secret now. (Job 20:26)

All darkness shall be hid in his secret places: a fire not blown shall consume him; it shall go ill with him that is left in his tabernacle.

and also here (Psalm 18:11). Alas, this overlaps with Man Scorpion. Still, Lion is doubled, so perhaps this as well?

He made darkness his secret place; his pavilion round about him were dark waters and thick clouds of the skies.

Finally, now you're talking seals. Arf arf!

For the last villain behind the last seal, have names upon this seal even been writ? When these names are spoken, there will be silence in heaven and earth for the space of half an hour. If these names are ever spoken.

Anachronism ahoy! (Revelations 8:1)

When the Lamb opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.

Noah: We have enough of the names to have a fair idea of which names will be in what range, and it is statistically likely that we have at least some of those mentioned here. The 'kill' names will apparently have to be discovered through trial and error (unless maybe one of the tribes beyond the river of stones remembers), but this is a pretty good start.

My question is this: do the names that work against one incarnation work against all incarnations? For instance, do the names that harm the Dragon harm *all* dragons? It might make sense, if they are descended from an original ancestor. We'll have to experiment, I guess. But who (or what) are these monsters, exactly? The Mad Dog? The Howling Wind? The Great Lion?