Difference between revisions of "Talk:Commentary on the Three Charms of Ikkulu"

Latest revision as of 10:33, 9 December 2008

Chris: Great, even this guy thinks these things are indecipherable. Maybe we should just bring the riddle of Stratoniche's Tomb to some Hypperboreans. There must be some scholar in poetry up there.

tcm: the last charm (hairless altar) is about Aramin and i think it points to Psoikanthe (which is in the wilderness of the Rus aka Russia). we found it already. however, if this says what i think it says, then Drelzne is not Kukuth as we had originally thought.

are there four sisters?

Kukuth killed Aramin and then Drelzne killed Kukuth, and then a fourth sister (brother) killed Drelzne?

"Kin to your killer, your victim, your avenger."-- Kukuth is kin to her killer, which i suppose to be Drelzne (because of this line

    [Aramin is] Avenged by her sister [Drelzne], risking the wrath of the Furies,
                Fratricide avenged by fratricide.")

as well as kin to her victim, which i suppose to be Aramin (again, the line above). but she is also kin to her avenger. did another sister (or possibly the son, Heracles) kill Drelzne to avenge Kukuth? there is a fourth name associated with these three and that is Stratobia. we originally though Kukuth was another name for Drelzne and Stratobia was another name for Aramin, but what if these are all different people, and they were all Ikulu's daughters?

aside from that, Heracles is Ikulu's son (whom Baba Iaga told us to seek in order to find her daughter [but which one?]) and he is in the East. now, which East will be harder to pinpoint, but the Diadocomachia says he went "east beyond the borders of the empire," which means past Alexandrine India. this could mean a myriad of places including China, Japan, and even the New World, depending on how far exactly he sailed.

Kerry: Which daughter is easily answered: Drelzne, who is on the moon. Also, Heracles is not in the New World, but rather the East.

Chris: Now, who is/are the father(s) of Ikulu's kids? Cause there could be half siblings. Didn't Alexander do the nasty in the pasty with Ikulu? I don't know much about this stuff. Thought I'd just interject.

tcm: it has been posited that Nectanebos was just Ikulu in disguise (see Olympia's Confession, and therefore Alexander could be Ikulu's son (although it seems Kukuth is also a result of this coupling), but it has also been posited that yes, Alexander and Ikulu conceived Heracles, and the charms above seem to point to that. now, it's certainly possible that both are true; it's not unheard of in the ancient world for incest to occur either accidentally or on purpose. if this is true, then it's also possible that Alexander is part of that whole fratricide bugfuck. as to other fathers/mothers, i don't believe we have any clues to that effect. only Olympia and Alexander have been hinted at thus far.

Noah: Texts, both in and out of game, seem confident that Barsine was the mother of Heracles. This would not make him any less kin to Ikulu, however, considering that Alexander was likely her son, thus making Heracles her grandson. No need to speculate incest at every turn, you sickos.

If at any point it was theorized that Drelzne was Kukuth, it seems to me now very concrete that Drelzne is/was referred to as Stratonike, Aramin as Stratobia, and Kukuth is someone else entirely, about whom we know little. A trip to the city of Dyrrachion, named in this commentary, might shed some light on this mysterious figure.

It might also help clarify things if someone were to draft a family tree, with Ikulu as the hub.

tcm: okay, but these people need to be siblings (fratricide only pertains to siblings killing siblings, right?). And Kukuth's poem points to there being four people involved in this merry-go-round situation. if Heracles is only her grandson, then we need to find Alexander in order to find the daughter (who i assume is Drelzne, what with being on the moon and all). doesn't everybody know where Alexander is? isn't he in Alexandria? no, i think Heracles is Ikulu's son, as he is the only "lost" male figure we know of. plus, he's got a poem devoted to him alongside ones devoted to Kukuth and Aramin. the more i think about it, the more certain i am that Heracles is Ikulu's son. Barsine could have been another disguise or name for Ikulu. this also means that Drelzne is not the 'evil' sister as we originally posited, but Kukuth is. Drelzne is supposed to restart the human race, so why would she be the evil one, right? poor Aramin just got the short end of the stick.

tcm: then, of course, there's this: Arabic Epitome of Greek Mythological Geneology. i guess it's possible for all these siblings to be siblings, but not all of them offspring of Ikulu.

Noah: Fratricide refers specifically to the killing of brothers, but Ikulu may be using it more loosely here (since the killing of sisters is sororicide and the killing of relations is parricide). But consider,

   Killed by Iasa, killed by Tlepolema,
   As Iason killed Pelias, as Tlepolemus killed Licymnius.

Neither of these instances counts as fratricide, except loosely. Jason didn't kill Pelias, except by prophecy and proximity to Medea (who technically didn't kill him either -- she tricked his daughters into doing the deed); anyway, Pelias was Jason's uncle, not his brother. So too, was Licymnius not Tlepolemus' brother but his father's uncle.

Kerry: The "..Iasa, ..Tlepolema" line indicates rather precisely that Kukuth was killed by her niece, as these are feminine versions of people famous for killing their uncles. This also indicates that tcm's assumption about a fourth child of Ikulu is false. As Noah points out, there are many kinds of kin, a niece being one. Kukuth's niece would be Drelzne's (aka, Stratonike's) daughter, or perhaps her granddaughter, Stratonike Jr.

Noah: In any event, Kukuth may well have been kin to her avenger, but it could be through other marital ties, here unknown. The first "fratricide" seems to be Aramin by Kukuth, the second Kukuth by Drelzne. More than that, I don't believe we have enough evidence to say.

Noah: Thanks to Kerry's assist, I believe I finally have the answer, although as often seems to be the case, it is subject to some shenanigans.

To clarify here, first, we are talking about Aramin's death by her niece or grand niece, as prefigured by the lines above. In order for this to be the case, she must have been killed by the female offspring of one of her siblings, or one of her siblings' spouses . Her siblings, that is, Ikulu's children, I believe we have conclusively demonstrated to be Alexander the Great and Drelzne.

Consider Alexander. His sole heir, Heracles, is sent off to distant lands, and although the line might continue unbroken through him, he was no longer a part of this particular story. So we can discount Alexander.

Drelzne is a bit trickier. She married Antigonus Monophthalmus and bore him Demetrius, but there is no mention of her having any other children, male or female. Maybe she did, but for reasons to follow it doesn't matter. There is also no mention of Antigonus having any children by another mother.

Demetrius married Phila and she bore him a girl, also named Stratonike, and she went on to have weird incestuous adventures with Seleucus & Son. That's pretty weird, but it seems doubtful that she would have any reason to kill Aramin. Then we get to Demetrius, who was a bit of a playboy. He took many lovers, but recalling the revelation in Olympia's Confession, one in particular comes to mind. From the Confession:

  Was his [Alexander's] father a god in the form of a snake, then, or just a snake? Am I 
  Europa or Pasiphae? But we all know the monster born of unnatural union was 
  Kukuth, the one who killed Stratobia.

What 'unnatural union' would that be? This one, from the Diadocomachia:

  In Athens, however, Demetrius showed the negative side of his character, and succumbed to a 
  life of debauchery. He had taken as a mistress Irithizon, known as the Lamia for the
  city she hailed from, and she seemed to sap from him something, many said, which made him 
  behave more foolishly than before.

Kukuth, Demetrius' daughter by Irithizon (lately slain by the Queens party), killed her great aunt Aramin, and was killed in return by her step-grandmother, Drelzne. Kin to her killer, her victim, her avenger, and Ikkulu. Voila.

That's enough to satisfy me, except for one problem: again according to the Diadocomachia, Olympias died years before Demetrius took Athens; she would have scrawled her final confession long before Kukuth was ever conceived. Could be shenanigans. Only time will tell.

...and while we're on the subject of shenanigans, I call the authenticity of the Inscription on the Monument of True Love Forever at Samothrace into question! Olympias was known only as Myrtale until after she married Philip II, and thus the inscription itself must be spurious.

tcm: I am not convinced that Alexander is Igwolf's son. Why do you think this is so? Do you have any kind of proof, circumstantial or otherwise? I'm still of the mind that Heracles is the son, what with him being missing and all, and we're supposed to find Igwolf's son. Last I checked, Alexander was not missing, right? Also, Hal seems pretty secure in the knowledge that you are way off base. He keeps snickering behind me as he reads your "answer."

Hal: "Snickering is satisfying." I asure you there are no temporal shenanigans here; honestly, it's almost as if you think I don't have my chronologies all written out. This is, of course, no guarantee that the texts you've been givenm are at all accurate....You do have a fair call on the Olympias controversy. It's probably best to take this as a translator's liberty, and assume the text actually reads "Polyxena."

Noah: If there are no temporal shenanigans, then alas, I must be wrong, despite the way things seem to add up so nicely. Brooklyn Party is headed back to Pella for other reasons; perhaps we can fish up the top of that monument to Olympias from the swamp and get a definitive year on its (heh heh) erection.

I submit to tcm that there is more evidence that suggests Ikkulu 'sired' Alexander than to suggest that she lay with him to produce Heracles. If we are to accept that Ikkulu was Nectanebos in Philip's Macedonian court (the real one dying elsewhere in obscurity), and that it was a snake he sent that impregnated Olympias (by her own, final admission)... what other conclusion are we to draw? Who was the snake if not she, herself?

I agree it isn't spelled out plainly, but then, these things seldom are.

Further, I am not asserting absolutely that Ikkulu could not be Heracles' mother as well - merely that we seem to have no evidence for it (and indeed, if we take Arabic Epitome of Greek Mythological Geneology as being correct, and we assume Alexander was her one son, we have evidence against it (although, to be fair, the epitome must certainly not include mention of the stillborn child from Igwulf's Obelisk, so we can't assume complete accuracy)).

Also, If Alexander's body isn't lost to history, perhaps you would like to tell us where it is.

Kerry: Ah, the irony. The Queens group has the only cleric that can cast Commune, but due to their distinct lack of enthusiasm regarding communication with others they lack all the information that would tell them what questions to ask. A simple "Was Alexander Igwilf's son?" would do wonders here.

I personally posit that Kukuth is Igwilf's son, born of the union of Igwilf and something monstrous, or else something female. Possibly Olympia, though the confession makes this unlikely. Evidence:

• i) It makes the fratricide reference exact and sensible. All murders (Kukuth kills Aramin, Drelzne kills Kukuth to avenge her, a niece kills Drelzne to avenge Kukuth) now make sense, or at least fall in line with the textual information.
• ii) Kukuth is referenced on the monument which references Igwilf's other dead kid, Aramin.

I further submit that Alexander is not Igwilf's son, but rather Kukuth's half-brother, possibly a fraternal twin. Igwilf set up Olympia and Philip for a reason, and Olympia may be confused baout Alexander's parentage. Kukuth is obviously a monster of some sort, and I would guess he was hidden away upon birth. Some research might turn up information on Olympia's monster children, since she seemed to get around with some wierd partners.

Noah: Patience, Kerry; Queens is looking into it (and may be closer to one method of sending mail than the rest of us -- see Communication). And it's not like you aren't the one sitting on a bunch of documents the rest of us would like to see.

Regarding the parentage of Kukuth, some answers are likely to be found in the vicinity of Epidamnus, which I believe is in Albania. Brooklyn should eventually be in the neighborhood, en route to Bhijimin. It is also possible that there is some evidence to be uncovered in Potidaea, which we should hit in a month or two.

Kerry: I would love to get those texts to you ASAP as well, but being in the butt-hole of Africa makes non-magical commmunication basically impossible. We're off to C-town eventually, but it is several thoudsand miles away. Still, druids level like crazy, so Eorl will get some letters from us sooner rather than later provided Ailyll doesn't die.

Noah: Hey, who knows - you may befriend some kind of crazy high-level sorceress out there in the jungle who could spare a dream spell. Or maybe after hacking King Solomon's Mine you can use the Seal to command you some high level djinn to send word. Point is, it would be helpful if Eorl at least *knew* you were in Africa, so he could try to facilitate communication accordingly. He still thinks you've gone to India.

tcm: Yeah, dude, settle down. We're kind of in the middle of something right now AND we haven't played in weeks. As soon as Cain is done kicking our asses and we've saved Kebnegard, we'll take some time to rest and communicate with people. Also, does not the Alexander Romance say the body is buried in one of those Egyptian cities he loved so much? I'll check it again when I get home to make sure.

Noah: Yes, the Diadocomachia suggests he was buried in Alexandria, but didn't stay there too long:

  ...while Cilles and Menelaus by stealth brought the body, and other things, in a sack to 
  Alexandria, the city Alexander had founded with Sinkartis, Aryanaos, and Baryathmin, which 
  Aristotle cautioned him against, for where best he built there he would lie. Another golden 
  casket was set up in the Sema, or Tomb, displaying the miraculously preserved corpse decked 
  in Hephastean's armor and the shield of Achilles, which Caligula later stole, and with, it 
  is said, the body beneath...

Eorl has theories about where it might be, but who knows if he's right!

...and if the rumors are true, and his body had mystical properties such that his generals fought over the right to eat it... well, maybe ol' Caligula gobbled it up himself!

Noah: Ok, we have passed through Dyrrachion and are on the case. The Earthly Beauty tells us that Kukuth was Ikulu's granddaughter, which would indicate she was Drelzne's daughter, killed her aunt Aramin and was then killed by Drelzne in return. The question then becomes: who sired Kukuth... and under what circumstances? Those jerks in Dyrrachion know. They also seem to indicate that there are now three more "Kukuth" to deal with...

Kerry: Since we know that

• Iggwilf's kids are Aramin, Drelzne, and Alexander
• Kukuth is Iggwilf's granddaughter, and therefore (due to the Iasa/Tleopolema bit) the niece of Aramin
• Kukuth killed Aramin

it seems queer that the charm should read "Avenged by her sister, risking the wrath of the Furies, Fratricide avenged by fratricide." Killing your niece or daughter (depending on whose kid Kukuth was) is not fratricide. Therefore Drelzne must have killed Alexander, thinking him the murderer of Aramin. Now the mystery is why she would think that. A set-up, or a mistake?

Noah: As above, it would seem Ikulu may be using the term fratricide more loosely here, since Kukuth's killing of Aramin wouldn't count as fratricide either. That doesn't mean you are wrong, and the theory has the right tang of tragic irony to it. I simply can't see any way that whoever offed Alexander did it in some sort of Hamletesque error with the poison. If it was Drelzne I can only see it as a massive set-up. Could she have acted alone? Was the cupbearer innocent (or charmed, perhaps)?

Kerry: I think the "fratricide avenged by fratricide" bit merely shows that Drelnze thought Aramin was killed by Alexander, though it was not truly so.

Noah: Meaning that Ikulu was being deliberately obfuscatory. It's not impossible. Easiest way to find out, I guess, is to cast commune and ask "did Drelzne kill Alexander" and if so, ask "was it accidental," "did she act alone," etc. If she did it, though, couldn't we expect some kind of outpouring of remorse from her recorded somewhere? If not remorse, then why not anger at having been so totally tricked? Even if Drelzne is as cool a customer as we are lead to believe, I have to imagine she'd be super pissed when she found out the truth.

Mulling it over though, perhaps it does make sense... if I killed Alexander the Great, whether intentionally or accidentally, I might very well not want to advertise that fact. If my daughter killed Alexander the Great, so much the more reason to stick her on the moon to keep her safe from incrimination. Of course, there were all those years she was married to Antigonus. Perhaps she and Ikulu were hoping to groom Demetrius to take Alexander's place?

I think your theory is plausible, but I wouldn't want to bet all the marbles on it without more evidence first.