Talk:Ikulu's Lament

I know how she feels.

Regarding a discussion tcm and I had not too many days ago: Hedamu does not equal Habogad. We do know who Hedamu is, however, or at least his descendant. JC knows.

Tcm also mentioned that there was some evidence that Gunther's spear was *the* spear that must be used to transfix the enemy. What is it?

Perhaps one note of optimism: however the enemy was defeated previously, it was without Ikulu's aid. There are others who would oppose the Octopuses, or have done so in the past. Ikulu's List, plus the names of power, plus the Book of Moons -- that's one way to do it. It might not be the only way. Or even the expedient way.

Poor Ikulu. She may have wasted her prodigious life barking up the wrong tree. -- Noah 23:03, 5 Sep 2005 (EDT)

We should probably keep in mind that Ikulu differentiates between the enemy (Tailed People), their gods and their gods' gods. My theory on the enemy of the enemy is that they are either "beyond" the Ganges (which Alexander the Great was not able to conquer) or, maybe even better, the Sarasvasti River, a river of mythical importance which dried up around 2000 BC. A dried up river makes a really good candidate for a river of stones. --ET 23:26, 5 Sep 2005 (EDT)

Well, ET, my Out of Character Knowledge tells me that you're way off base. Read up on ancient Babylonia mythology if you desire to know why. --Kerry

tcm: yeah, Hedamu does not equal Habogad. is this descendant the stylite? if it is, Jean-Claude has told us about him.

re: the spear as *the* spear: if you remember, a fragment from one of the Black Cube Poems was given to Ivan by the Duchess Anna Ivanovna as his gift while everyone else was getting super-awesome crazy magic things. the spear became much more important when the rest of this poem was found on a cube in a dungeon that Igwolf had built. Ikulu's Lament mentions that the spear needs to be dipped in lava in order to unlock its full potential (while also burning the dipper's hand very severely). again, we're not certain yet, but the eight ball says it's very likely.

Hedamu is not human. If JC has forgotten the specifics, reading Ido's note again may refresh his memory. -- Noah 10:22, 6 Sep 2005 (EDT)

tcm: oh! you mean the dragon on Mt. Ararat. yeah, JC's mentioned that too, and in fact that does make sense. if Noah is Deucalion (which he is), then Hedamu would be near his boat on Mt. Ararat (which is where Noah is believed to have landed).

I really really doubt that the spear Gunther had is THE spear. Where did you guys get it? You know that there is a 100% chance that this is also the Spear of Destiny, right? I just don't think that is something you can have without really really working for. I want to hear the rest of your evidence, ie which piece of the peom did the duchess give Ivan? --Kerry

tcm: the Spear was originally found by the Old Party in the New World and then they lost it i.e. Harald stole it. Gunther refound it on the body of someone we thought was Harald in Scotland (the body was probably that of one of the clones). the poetic fragment given to Ivan was (and this information is easily available in the Spear entry in Weapons section of the Items of Note): "with burning spear and horse of air." the rest of the poem is available in the Black Cube Poems entry. and why does the Spear in question have "a 100% chance" of being the Spear of Destiny? where do you get that from? is there proof of some sort? obviously, these myths and symbols change over time and many of them appear in different world stories, so the spear that Marduk used to transfix Tiamat could conceivably also mean the Spear that a Roman Centurion used to make sure Christ was dead, but that is quite a leap. rarely do symbols change meaning that much.

When I put up Halgobad's stuff you'll likely understand why I am sure they are both the same spear. Also, I thought the spear was found on the body of an undead roman who also had the +2 roman shield Gunther fought with. I totally don't remeber finding a spear in the new world or Harald stealing it. --Kerry

tcm: hurm... see, this information was given to me by Dan (who said where he found it, which was alongside the Roman Shield) and others who said Harald stole after it was found in the New World. you should really ask Dan about this because now i'm stumped.

Don't be the stumped chump. The only spear Harald ever had was a cursed +3 backbiter that we found in Psoikanthe. We got rid of that. I don't know who told you Harald stole a spear, but they're dead wrong. For one thing, that would mean the spear you have is an inferior copy, and that Evelake has the real deal. Also, Hal kind of confirmed that I'm right and you're crazy. --Kerry

Not Psoikanthe, Kebnekaise. -Hal

tcm: again, go ask Dan.

tcm: read Letter from Prince Vselov to Jarl Bolthar. pay close attention to the line about the Duchess seeing a spear much older than the Prince's.

---

Kerry speaks: Here is the whole thing so we can annotate it. Annotations will be indented.

 People of the future! For it appears I will fail; there is some clue I am 
 missing. I have searched and scryed Asia, Africa, and Europa, the three 
 parts of the earth, and yet the minions of the enemy are nowhere to be 
 found. I never found the names of power, either. Who held the seal knew 
 them, I know, but I do not know who held the seal. 

• Seal = Seal of Solomon? Time and place seem right, as these names are all from Sumerian mythology. -Kerry

• I'm thinking the same thing. It also might answer some questions (and provide a potential solution) vis-a-vis the demonness you chuckleheads let loose. Plus, with the seal, you could probably tell a certain second-only-to-Allah genie where to stick it. -- Noah 14:13, 8 Sep 2005 (EDT)

• Hmmm. I think Cain imprisoned the succubus with his magic, no seal required. He rather predates such stuff. I'd like to get my hands on it, 'cause that genie sounds pretty scary. However Walid says that the genie can't go into the desert, allowing us to live happily in the wastes for years to come. --Kerry

• You might be onto something with Solomon. We recently heard that the Stonemasons built the Temple of Solomon and are currently searching for some sort of tower. --ET 23:45, 8 Sep 2005 (EDT)

• I have a new text that involves Solomon being asked riddles by a dwarf. It has HUGE significance, and answers many of Igwilf's questions. I may even post it if the Queens party makes an effort to freakin' communicate this stuff to the rest of us.

• tcm: Yes, the seal = the Seal of Solomon, and yes, the Masons have the Names of Power. they basically confirmed it when they told Moishe to back off on the asking of where the names are. also, where is this text about Solomon and the dwarf. post it already. also, Lilith was the demoness you let loose.

 A direct confrontation 
 without the names of power would be suicide, even if the enemy could be 
 located, and so we must slumber. No, she will slumber, and I will seek on. 
 And she will slumber, long after my death.
 
 There were two sisters and one died.
 
 There were two sisters and one died.
 
 She can be found on her. Only with the body can she be found. The body leads 
 to the body. The live sister on the live sister. I have never been there, 
 and her trip will be one-way, at least until the tomb is opened. Perhaps the 
 vantage point will give her a new perspective. I wish I could hear her 
 describe it. I miss her already. At night all slumber, and I lie awake and 
 look up at the moon.

• So she is on the moon, but which one? The one that is lost or the one we see now?

--Kerry

 I failed to find the enemy; I failed to find the name of their enemy; I 
 failed to find the spear that slew them, doubtless because it too slumbers. 
 It can be wakened only by a plunge into the liquid heart of the volcano, the 
 hand that wields it shriveling and blackening. T

• Looks like a job for Ido, should she ever deign to adventure with us again.

--Kerry

• Even should she never return, there are others fluent in the language of fire. Some might even be amenable to providing humanity a boon such as the one suggested here. -- Noah 14:26, 8 Sep 2005 (EDT)

• Hmm. I'd rather have Ido. Plus, walking into a volcano is something she really ought to get to do at least once.

--Kerry

 The invaders from the south 
 knew it in their legends, that only in the extreme self-abnegation of the 
 three crippled gods can power come.

• tcm: wasn't Ilya made super-strong by three old men? didn't three strange men tell Adam about the Deluge (as can be read in the Apocalypse of Adam, currently in the Gregory Memorial Library? Halifax, you should supply us with those texts. i know they're available online in many forms, but i want the ones that're actually in the library. this Apocalypse of Adam seems more important than was originally let on.

• Hal: For that matter, Kolya took three men to Constantinople to check out the Orthodox faith for Prince Vladimir. I'll try to work up an Apocalypse of Adam sans lacunae.

 Tiwaz had but one hand; it is their 
 oldest legend. One blackened hand to wield the spear that no longer slumbers.

• tcm: Tiwaz == Tyr, Thor's brother in the Aesir. he has but one hand because he lost the other to Fenriswulf, the wolf bound by the Gleipnir, bindings that will hold until Ragnarok. i don't remember any stories of Tyr weilding a spear, though. however, there are stories of Odin having a spear (Gungnir) and there is evidence to suggest that Tyr (or Tiwaz) was simply another name for Odin.

 In the New City, nothing sleeps, but nothing is truly awake. It is for this 
 reason that I named it after Nawobod, the City of Dreams, whence the roguish 
 boy king brought me back this marvelous gift. 

• Gift = Tarot deck? It makes sense, as it came from India, which is where Nawobod is. -Kerry

• tcm: what came from India? the Tarot Deck? why is this so?

• The Tarot in general comes from India. --Kerry

 Nothing sleeps, but staggers 
 on in a dream that never ends. I could have simply buried her beneath the 
 ground here, where she would linger through the ages, if I thought through 
 the ages she would remain safe.  She is in the safest place, and the last 
 place they would look, where she can tug at them and they can strain but 
 never reach her.
 
 The one born from stone is a metaphor, of course, but many things are 
 metaphors. Only the highest of his priests will guard the truth, the two 
 secret locations, Psoikanthe and the Tomb of the Shepherd—where are hidden 
 my two great creations, the Book of Moons and her. 

• His priests = priests of Mithra. Have we found the highest? I doubt it. --Kerry

• tcm: "The one born from stone" definitely points to Mithra. the Tomb of the Shepherd is also associated with Mithra, although has by now been co-opted to mean the Tomb of the Christ. Psoikanthe of course held the Book of Moons that Lord Evelake stole from us as soon as we got it, and the Tomb of the Shepherd is either on moon, or is possibly a gateway to the moon. but which moon indeed. if it's the blown up moon (that Ivan has dreamt about, incidentally), i think we're screwed.

 Only in the heart of the 
 enemy can the formula be prepared. The enemy’s gods’ gods will be there to 
 oppose us, the hag and hungry goblin that into rags would rend you. Follow 
 the instructions to a T. I gathered everything together and then had nothing 
 to do with it; I made the quicklime but had nowhere to spread it. We were 
 building a dam, for when the waters rise, but the roguish boy-king could not 
 quite make it. We will not stand united. I had dreamed that all the peoples 
 of the Earth might fight together, but, like a schoolboy behind the Academy 
 with his fists up and his righteous fury, we have nothing to fight. And then 
 something went wrong, so many miles away, and the boy died, just as the girl 
 died, and there was no point even continuing. The dream died with him, and 
 all my dreams died with her.
 
 They came from the sea, terrorized Egypt (which can never be vanquished for 
 long, clever Egypt! that flows like the waters of the Nile), toppled the 
 Hittites, and then melted away. Where did they melt to? What becomes of a 
 dream in the morning, as it fades away like the stars?
 
 There are at least two secrets I have been unable to plumb. Who defeated 
 them last time? Where did they go? 

• I bet old man Morkoth knows where they went. We'll check when we swing back around to Constantinople. Eorl might be able to check it out, but I think it's the same kind of monster that ate Gunther, so it might be better if he waited for us. --Kerry

• When you "swing back around," Eorl will have Morkoth writing his memoirs in the governor's mansion while simultaneously scrubbing the den floor with his free tentacles. Don't you worry about that. -- Noah 14:31, 8 Sep 2005 (EDT)

• tcm: Actually, they just retreated, right Noah? Nelchael said as much.

 Some have said the answer to the first 
 question is: Zeus, but Zeus only fought them in metaphor, when he fought the 
 hundred-handed ones. Zeus is not the name of power. Some say the answer to 
 the second question is: elsewhere. But if they have truly gone elsewhere, 
 and if there is no one to call them back, then are we not safe? And yet I 
 could find no one left to call them back. 

• Right, no one left. That's because she is missing a continent in her list of the world. I bet those tailed folks are trying mighty hard to call them back. They might be in the Pacific, in fact.

 And yet I never learned the name 
 of the enemy of our enemy, the one whose name brings them fear and haunts 
 their nightmares. I asked Hedamu, who lies near the ship of Deucalion, but 
 even he no longer knows. Egypt is the most ancient country, but even there 
 they have forgotten. The answer, they say, lies beyond the river of stones, 
 but this was the one river the boy could not cross.
 

• The river of stones is from Mandeville. -Kerry
  • For in his country is the sea that men clepe the Gravelly Sea, that is all gravel and sand, without any drop of water and it ebbeth and floweth in great waves as other seas do and it is never still ne in peace, in no manner season. And no man may pass that sea by navy, ne by no manner of craft, and therefore may no man know what land is beyond that sea. And albeit that it have no water, yet men find therein and on the banks full good fish of other manner of kind and shape, than men find in any other sea and they be of right good taste and delicious to man's meat.--Mandeville

• tcm: perhaps you could elucidate in whose "country is the sea that men clepe the Gravelly Sea?"

• Why Perster John, of course. --Kerry

• tcm: aren't you a little off on your timing? i thought Prester John was much later than 988AD.

 I scarcely even know the enemy. Am I repeating myself? She birthed the worm, 
 the dragon, the female monster, the great lion, the mad dog, the man 
 scorpion, the howling storm, Kulili, Kusariku. There was no pity in their 
 weapons, and they did not flinch from battle, for her law was binding, 
 irrevocable. The octopuses bear her on their many shoulders. But what is her 
 true form? Could she be formless? I am so tired now. Was it all so far in 
 the past, this great combat in the skies, that its participants are now 
 forgotten to the world? I am so old and so tired.
 
 This is the dream I dreamed: Long ago, the earth was chaos, a void, without 
 form, as water. Some god fought the spirit of the water, and pierced her 
 with a spear, and made land, and all the things upon it. This is the story 
 of Vili and Ve, who fight the Ymir, the ice, and makes the land from him; 
 this is the story of Zeus, who fought the chthonic Titans and the chthonic 
 Giants and above all Typhon and Echidna; this is the story of dear 
 Vainimoinen, whose family comes from the sky and drives the water back. They 
 sought to build an axis, from ground to sky, following the path of the shaft 
 of the spear, and therefore pin forever the spirit of the waters. The spirit 
 of the waters fought back, destroyed the tower that was to stand as an axis, 

• The tower of Babel, no? Prominently featured in the background of the Hittite cave inscription? The collapse of the tower rendered it impossible for humanity to present a united front against invasion. -- Noah 14:36, 8 Sep 2005 (EDT)

• I was thinking the same thing, especially in conjunction with Alexander uniting all the poeple of the world. Queens party had an email conversation about all the new information that should probably get posted. --ET 23:45, 8 Sep 2005 (EDT)

 and perhaps even managed to drown humanity once—but the man known as 
 Deucalion survived, and humanity survived. But the spirit of the water, who 
 is as formless as the boneless octopus, has not left the earth easily, and 
 will return again, perhaps this time to triumph. All histories of the word 
 but this one are lies. All facts but these are unimportant.
 
 Is the tower a metaphor? Is the spear a metaphor? Is the axis a metaphor? 
 How many thousands and thousands of years have passed? Will humankind live 
 another 1300 years? And what then, when the rains come? Who will rescue us 
 this time, when their night ends, and they wake, and ours begins?